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Vac chambers are DAMN expensive...
I've come to realize this. And granted, this isn't exactly the most economical of hobbies, but have folks out there had any luck with home-grown vacuum chambers?
I was kinda hoping that the bombs-away method would work in all cases, but it doesn't look like that's the case...
Whaddaya you Resinators out there think?
I was kinda hoping that the bombs-away method would work in all cases, but it doesn't look like that's the case...
Whaddaya you Resinators out there think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Josh Barton on -
The bombs-away method would work with really slow curing resin, I think. But that might kill fast production of pieces. I use crazy fast curing resin and I cranked out 23 yokai feet in under 2 hours. And I was being very lazy about it. ADD very rarely lets me sit and do one thing for too long. But the issue with the vac chamber, I feel, is more of a dedication issue. If you want to be a 'pro' toy designer/maker/guy person, then you'll most likely need to either build or buy one. I've already made up my mind that I'll be doing just that as soon as I have the capitol to make it happen.
I've seen a few tutorials on youtube on making vac chambers and it looks 100% feasible to make a high quality vc for hobby purposes. Now if only someone can show me how to make a vinyl slush molding mini factory...
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Permalink Reply by Sanjeev on -
Okay, so here's where I'm a bit confused (and I alluded to this confusion in the other thread where Rand said you should use a vacuum chamber with both the silicone pouring for making the mold and with the resin pouring form casting the part)...
That video I posted shows the bombs-away method explicitly for pouring the silicone. I never thought of doing it for the resin. Isn't resin mad thin (low-viscosity)? I would imagine doing bombs-away for resin would result in the stuff forming individual droplets in the air instead of forming a smooth, laminar stream...
And I guess that brings me to my question to Rand from before: if resin is so watery, would you *really* need to vac chamber it?
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Permalink Reply by rand borden on -
not all resins are of the same viscosity. a vacuum chamber will pull all the air out, hence vacuum. The bubbles will be pulled out of the resin
Sanjeev said:Okay, so here's where I'm a bit confused (and I alluded to this confusion in the other thread where Rand said you should use a vacuum chamber with both the silicone pouring for making the mold and with the resin pouring form casting the part)...
That video I posted shows the bombs-away method explicitly for pouring the silicone. I never thought of doing it for the resin. Isn't resin mad thin (low-viscosity)? I would imagine doing bombs-away for resin would result in the stuff forming individual droplets in the air instead of forming a smooth, laminar stream...
And I guess that brings me to my question to Rand from before: if resin is so watery, would you *really* need to vac chamber it?
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Permalink Reply by Sanjeev on
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rand borden said:not all resins are of the same viscosity. a vacuum chamber will pull all the air out, hence vacuum. The bubbles will be pulled out of the resin
Interesting! Aiight then...well, maybe it would be worth trying out a more viscous-pouring (and slower-curing) resin with the bombs-away method for now, while you don't have a vac chamber yet. I would imagine the best way to do it would be to have the resin stream hit the top of your mold in some sort of inclined basin...so that the resin flows down toward the actual hole leading to the part's cavity--that should guarantee that the flow into the cavity is slow and smooth to insure no new bubbles are introduced into the resin.
Rand, have you done a lot of resin casting in your time? Any sweet kaiju coming out of your shop? ;)
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Permalink Reply by rand borden on
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about 10 years ago I did a lot of casting. all kinds of materials. I was making replacement parts for my shogun warriors.(no I don't have the molds anymore except the claw rests for the veritank) On another note I accidentally came up with a compound that looks and feels kind of like a med hard vinyl. I made a piece with it about 10 years ago and it still hasn't broken down. It even spent a year outside. Here is the mix
50/50 mix of high grade mask latex and Utrecht brand artist grade gesso
then add about %10 "C-21" acrylic concrete bonding agent. The consistency should be like pudding.
you can pigment it slightly but because of the gesso it will always be pastel in nature
I slush cast it into a silicon mold. It needs to air dry so it could take a few days. I like to put it in a hot box, it will speed up the drying significantly.
as for a vacuum chamber my friend built one heres what he did. Find a scrap piece of cast iron sewer pipe 1 foot is plenty for most toy work. buy just the vacuum pump. drill and tap a hole into the pipe to attach the pump (make sure to use thread tape to prevent leaks). use a piece of 1 inch plexi for the top and bottom. use silicon caulking to seal the bottom. For the top make a gasket from roofing rubber. Just cut out a donut shape and glue it to the plexi lid. The vacuum pressure will hold the lid in place. Depending on the pump you get you also might have to get a pressure gauge and a release valve.
the
thoughts on vinyl casting. I want to the marmit factory in japan. When I was there I noticed they use Plastisol for the toys. Plastisol is also what most t shirts are printed with these days. shirt is printed and then "flashed" a short blast of heat (280˚ f) to cure the ink much like in the mold of a toy. So it might be posable to use this if you had a metal mold. It could be tested on a cookie sheet a suppose. One problem might be using a release agent that can work with the heat. I was a sculpture/screenprinting major in school.
have been mostly working on a new video project should be done soon. I really want to make a RoBox Jumbo with a real cardboard box body just need to find the money to make it. A new cycloptopuss will be released soon thru www.killgraffiti.com soon.
longest post of my life!
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Permalink Reply by Sanjeev on
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Well, I'll be damned! Here I was thinking you were "just" the genius behind Kaiju Big Battel! I had no idea you were into chogokin...let alone a sculpture and screenprinting major in school. That's wild, man! Heh...this woulda been perfect for Josh's "meet your fellow monster" thread...
Anyway, this crazy pseudo-vinyl mix of yours...when someone says "slush cast", I think molten vinyl filling the mold cavity and solidifying against the surface of the mold...and then the excess in the middle being drained off. With what you're describing, do you mean, you fill the mold with your mixture, then pour off the excess immediately to leave a viscous layer sticking to the mold? The stuff's obviously not a molten solid, so I just was curious about this method. Either way, it sounds amazing! Now I'm curious how you made your molds! ;)
So does Marmit use Plastisol for all their sofubi? I presume it's just one component in their "secret recipe" or something like that..? Man, how crazy would it be if this research could lead to our own home-grown vinyl toys! :P And, dude, if you could pull something off with a Jumbo Machinder RoBox, that'd be SO fucking sick! It's, like, the year of the modern Jumbo's, huh? Flynn's Stormtrooper, Toynami's Voltrons, Zeem's Daitetsujin-17, Bandai's Neo Jumbo Mazinger Z...it's time for the cardboard robots to represent!
Anyway, thanks for the tips on the vacuum chamber. Post your video--whatever it is--here! And it's good to hear more Cycloptopi are coming. Been a while since we've heard of any new KBB figure releases...
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Permalink Reply by rand borden on
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I used a product made by smooth-on can't remember what it was called but it was a silocon base and was very flexible. It was blue in color.
The definition of slush cast is just that. You fill up the mold and than dump out the excess. With Vinyl the heat cooks it onto the mold than the rest is put back in the pot. Marmit uses just the plastisol. I think most Japanese vinyl is made with this while most chinese vinyl uses pellets that are melted and injected into the mold (cheaper smelly and not as nice to touch). Contrary to common belief the plastisol vinyl is not hot and doesn't have a strong oder. It is pored cold into the mold and that is than heated up in a tank filled with either oil or super heated water. For the water bath the water is mixed with a type of salt (very toxic) this prevents the water from boiling and heats up to 300 f. Marmit uses the water method. While the water is very toxic it is safer than the oil which can easily burst into flames. On a side note Mr Akamatsu told me a story about a toy company that went bankrupt. The president went to the vinyl shed and drank a glass of the water and died almost instantly.
I came up with the RoBox idea about 3 years ago but with all the Jumbo activity lately I've been trying to figure a way to make it happen.
If the cycloptopi move I was thinking of making some blank GID next; for the painting crowd.
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Permalink Reply by Sanjeev on
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Do you get the feeling that you're giving away trade secrets here? Hahaha...I know it's not a big fucking deal--we're discussing how some fairly niche, obscure collectibles are manufactured...and yet, there's this whole air of secrecy around it. I mean, what you just described isn't rocket science...yet, it's just so weird that the info is so damn underground, y'knowmsayin?
Mark's blog post about Shimizu-san's factory is now world-fucking-famous. It's been on CNNgo and all that. But it just seems like there's no reason why this info shouldn't be common knowledge...at least to nerds like us!
Anyway, watch your back, Rand. Wouldn't want a yakuza hit put out on ya! ;)
Definitely see what you can do about a RoBox jumbo, but absolutely drop more Cycloptopi...PLEEEEEZE. That's my favorite sculpt so far...and an unpainted GID one would blow my damn mind!
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Permalink Reply by Kel Wilson on -
I made a small vacuum chamber from an 8 inch PVC joint, fittings and two 9inch glass pie plates for the ends. Holds a vacuum pretty well but I need a stronger pump.
Opted instead for a pressure tank (ebay find 20$) It works well with both silicone and resin.
I usually use the ten minute resin, but I may go with a longer set as I pour multiple parts/molds at one time and it takes a bit to seal the tank
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Permalink Reply by Sanjeev on
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That sounds great, Kel. This brings yet another question to mind: with home-made vacuum chambers, I can imagine their ability to hold the vacuum being less than optimal. How sensitive is resin (or silicone) to pressure changes? Like, I assume the stuff has to be held at a very low pressure for a certain amount of time to get all the air out...does that become a problem if your vac chamber can't maintain a low pressure for very long?
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Permalink Reply by Kel Wilson on
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My pump never pulled a strong enough vacuum however for silicone degassing youd only need it to hold for a few minutes.
The pressure tank has held at 75 psi for over 24 hours.
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Permalink Reply by Josh Barton on
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So I finally looked into making a vac chamber. But the guy I spoke to at Harbor Freight said the vac would totally suck the resin up along with the air. After a bit more research, it seems that the vac chamber is really only used for silicon and a pressure pot is used to bust up the bubbles in resin. I don't know how I could've missed such simple and essential information before. Plaseebo where are you when we need your resin knowledge?
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